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JV State 2007

Tournament announcements, results, and discussion about specific tournaments.
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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

It's goin' down.

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Post by hugatree1715 »

I think we (Truman) will have a good run this year.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

Kirksville beat Liberty 550-535 - Kirksville got the last question correct for 20 points to take the win.

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Post by hugatree1715 »

The large school division went as follows:

1. Kirksville
2. Liberty
3. Truman
4. Marshall

I don't remember the scores or anything, or who was on the all-tournament team. I was 3rd all-tournament in large-school, but I don't remember any more.

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Post by FZW Coach »

Wow! I bet that was a great game. We played both of those teams - losing to Liberty in overtime and Kirksville in the last quarter after leading at half.


It was our first trip. It was interesting. I do think the western half of the state defines junior varsity differently than I do. I took no juniors - just sophomores and one freshman. That is what I was hoping to see.

It is ok, though. The kids had fun. We played a new format and had 4 great games.

Who finished 3rd? Truman?

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Post by FZW Coach »

hugatree1715 wrote: The large school division went as follows:

1. Kirksville
2. Liberty
3. Truman
4. Marshall

I don't remember the scores or anything, or who was on the all-tournament team. I was 3rd all-tournament in large-school, but I don't remember any more.
Good job, Michael! You looked like a great player!

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Post by sloopy »

who was in the small school class, and how did they do?

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Post by johnboy81918 »

FZW Coach wrote: I do think the western half of the state defines junior varsity differently than I do. I took no juniors - just sophomores and one freshman. That is what I was hoping to see.
Well, for us at least...

Our high school is grades 10-12. So, our JV team is typically made up of sophs and juniors. Every once in a while we'll get a frosh or two, but for the most part, it's always been sophomores and juniors. It's harder to get freshmen on the team when they go to a different school










:(

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Post by hugatree1715 »

Good job, Michael! You looked like a great player!
Thanks, your team did a very nice job, both in defeating us in the first round, and doing very well overall. Our team started very slow and picked up as we went. In the semi-finals, we nearly overtook Kirksville, but they jumped on the last four questions and locked the game away.

And on the topic of sophomores/juniors, our team was made up of only seven sophomores (all six of us on JV last year were freshmen). Our varsity is all seniors, so we'll be the next varsity team (barring any discoveries of new players). Our school has an odd cycle of every other class being good at competitions.

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Post by L-Town Expatriate »

When talking with my parents yesterday via phone, the names "Ravi" and "Laura" came up, as well as "John". Those sound like varsity names to me...








:unsure:

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Post by hugatree1715 »

Well a "Ravi" and a "Laura" from Kirksville were playing the whole time, and I'm no expert on Kirksville's varsity. They were both very good (Ravi was especially good at math). Our coach has a strict "JV-plays-at-JV-tournaments, Varsity-plays-at-Varsity-tournaments" rule (in the exception of Savannah varsity tournament, where there was only 1 varsity member going, so I played varsity).

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Post by L-Town Expatriate »

I might want to hear from Ravi on this. Laura certainly is Varsity from the Kirksville games I've observed, as she's sat in as captain during the first half. Ditto for Ravi as he tore it up at Truman's tournament.

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Post by KentB »

While they may be Varsity, Ravi is a Freshman which more than entitles him to play at JV state..... Laura ... if it is the one I am thinking of, she is a Junior ... which would be slightly shady.

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Post by ecks »

L-Town Expatriate wrote: I might want to hear from Ravi on this. Laura certainly is Varsity from the Kirksville games I've observed, as she's sat in as captain during the first half. Ditto for Ravi as he tore it up at Truman's tournament.
Laura was captain most of the time I moderated for Kville HS at our spring tournament, and like Kent said, I'm pretty sure she's a Junior, which makes playing at JV state a little shady.

Ravi's a freshman and shouldn't be excluded from a JV state tournament just because he's good enough to play with juniors and seniors.

On a side note, I find this whole thing pretty interesting--the fact that some juniors are at JV state. In Illinois, the IHSA pretty scrictly defines JV: you can only do it if you are a freshman or sophomore. Good frosh & sophs can go to the varsity team at will if they want to, and when I was a senior we had an amazing sophomore who would go to varsity tournaments and JV tournaments.

The funny thing is even though they're really strict about who can be on JV, there is no JV state tournament series in Illinois--they've tried to do it in the past, but there just isn't enough interest. There aren't that many regular JV tournaments, either. Mostly it's either you're good enough to play varsity or you wait a year or two to play past the regular season.

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Post by FZW Coach »

I had no problem with Ravi playing. When Danielle was a freshman, she was also that good at mathematics and we even had her captain our Varsity B team for Two Saints (originally we thought we had two JV teams but they switched it on us at the last minute). The next year, however, I had her play with Teri on the JV level. I wanted them to gain confidence. They won every game except the championship game where PCH defeated them. Now Danielle has been accepted and will be attending M.I.T. Of course, that means she won't be at Districts. But, . . . it is what it is.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

I heard Kirksville wasn't the only questionable team here. Apparently Oak Grove had a player who made all-district last year playing this year. Someone called them out and they left at lunch.

Seriously, moving otherwise varsity back down to JV does no one any good.

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Post by hugatree1715 »

I asked the Kirksville team, before we played, what grade everyone was in. Laura replied, "We're all juniors, except for Ravi." I have no problem with playing skilled freshmen on JV, but having a mostly-Junior team could a bit shady. I don't know, I guess winning means a lot more to some people than it does to others.

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Post by East Buc & UMR »

Jr's and Sr's are ok in my book

Jr's and Sr's( and So's and Frosh for that matter) that also play Var. fulltime not so Kosher.

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Post by DeckardCain »

I was under the impression that eligibility for JV State was based on how much varsity playing time someone had had that season, not grade level. I don't know if this is true, or maybe was true back when I played HS but is not accurate anymore, but that's what I remember.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

I remember some kind of unofficial standard (not sure exactly who or what defined it) being something like any person playing in a JV tournament shouldn't play more than 30% Varsity.

Who knows, may just be something I'm making up.

Anyone who regularly starts Varsity should obviously never play JV.
I think anyone designated as part of the regular varsity team who doesn't see much playing time (like 1/4 of the time or less) should be allowed to go to at most two JV tournaments (depending on how good the player is, this really should only occur when the school has trouble fielding a full JV team and might provide an exception to the limit). This might be a little harsh depending on the circumstances.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

I really think MACA should get together and set a guideline for "who can play at JV state." For instance, if you're planning on being a starting varsity player at districts, you should know that by late March and then not be allowed to play (unless maybe there are special circumstances). If you have been playing varsity since the previous year, of course no JV play, or if you've, throughout the season, played more varsity than not then of course you shouldn't play. For example, Brandon and Grant on our team played two JV tournaments in the first semester. Neither of them were, at the time, truly varsity level, so we did that to explore what they could do playing by themselves on topics that were more to their difficulty. By the time the second JV tournament came around, they showed that they were progressing and definitely ready to move up full time. Brandon and Grant are sophomore and freshman respectively, so if we had decided to move them back down to JV that would be comparable to what happened with Ravi here, but it would do them little good to improve, and it would be unfair to the real JV teams there. That's something that I think we're missing here is that Liberty really was playing with their JV, up against a hybrid varsity, and they still were good enough to play within 5 points. So to me, Liberty deserves the trophy because they are actually a JV team.
As for juniors, I've said before I think that if you already were consistently varsity you have no business being a JV player, but if they're weak(er) or it's their first year, then let 'em play JV.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

Yes, at a minimum there should be specific eligibility guidelines set to be able to play at JV state, so there is at least one tournament with a true JV champion. Early in the season some things can slide but especially by that point something like Ryan Stander playing Savannah's JV in 2005 (and going on to be 5th all state) is blatantly over the line. I was never very happy with that decision to play him.

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Post by ecks »

All of this talking about playing time on varsity squads--40% of varsity games and you're out, etc., are all good when it comes to general guidelines but not so much for actual eligibility in rules, because then you have to start thinking about how long people have been in what games, and with larger programs that could be a nightmare if no one on the team enjoys taking statistics (or even if they did, it still might be almost impossible to do so objectively).

I don't really see a problem with restricting it to sophomores and freshmen only--and yes, that includes the really good freshmen who regularly start for their varsity teams. It doesn't cause too much of a problem in Illinois; good programs still find a way for their junior and senior freshlings to play (the bad programs don't usually have an excess number of players anyway) and no one has a problem with really good freshmen and sophomores because they are still only freshmen and sophomores, no matter how good they are. There's no reason why it should be a problem in Missouri.

Edit: I guess it all really boils down to what is trying to be accomplished by a JV state tournament. If you're trying to see who has the best novice team in the state, well... 'novice' is an awfully hard term to define, as we've seen. If you're trying to pit the best YOUNG, up-and-coming talents in the state against each other, then it becomes a lot easier to define.

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Post by Ravi Fernando »

We (Kirksville) don't have a JV team. We try to play many people on varsity, and continued to do so in the tournament. Eleven people showed up for our team, and we played all of them. In the morning games, we started with players who rarely play for varsity, and subbed in Laura (junior) and myself (freshman) later. This, at least in part, accounts for why neither of us got individual awards. In the afternoon, we played our best players more, but still switched people quite a bit. I might note that Laura and I were subbed out for at least one or two periods in (almost?) every game, and that the only official requirement is that seniors can't play. I was later told that the Savannah coach had a problem with me playing in the grand championship because he was aware that I have played for varsity, and because of this I was subbed out for the middle three periods, ultimately leading to our five-point defeat.

-Ravi

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Post by FZW Coach »

Ravi,

Thanks for the explanation. In the midst of the tournament, I was thinking that other places do not have a well-defined JV system as we do in Two Saints.


Side note: Charles, I just read that Jimmy Li did not like the questions at Two Saints. Well, we (coaches) actually used to write the questions so some weeks were pretty bad. I remember a 20 - 10 game involving my JV team (if that tells you anything). For two years, we bought from Richland's former coach. Last year, we bought from Straight A. I am not sure where we will get the questions this next year, but we did notice too many mathematical errors (though I tried to correct them for the St. Charles teams when I could). We need good questions that we do not have to edit (since we do not want coaches looking at the questions prior to each week's games).

We do make a concious effort to only play freshman and sophomores on JV. They get 5 weeks of competition (11 games), so our system is very well defined. I give out letters (as you would receive in other sports in December), awarding junior varsity players and varsity players. We keep the top 10 for Spring competitions.

Ravi, I never had any issue with you playing in that tournament. If you are a freshman or sophomore, you are still a freshman or sophomore. Julia was our captain (sophomore) and had the 3rd best percentage of questions answered at our Gateway Athletic Conference event. However, as was shown in the JV Tournament, she is still inconsistent. She started with 10 questions answered against Truman, but only had 3 a game the last two games and was out scored by our freshman captain Abby in both games (she was our 3rd overall scorer that day) but had 4 and 5 questions the final two games respectively.

We will see you all in a couple of weeks! The top four teams should be pretty good since all 4 have won or finished high at tournaments this year.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

Something I want to point out, especially to Chris who seems to be treating this as a "Freshman/Sophomore tournament," not a "Junior Varsity" tournament is this detail.
IT'S FOR JUNIOR VARSITY.
Not for varsity freshman, sophomores, or juniors, especially this late in the year. If this tournament were advertised as "Freshman-Sophomore" then I would have no problem with Ravi playing, but it's not Fr./Sop, it's JV. There's a real difference that we're missing here.

--EDIT--
In a nutshell, JV/varsity should not be about age as much as it should be about experince.

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Post by FZW Coach »

It would be difficult to claim that Ravi or Julia should be restricted from this tournament because they played a couple of varsity tournaments. There are not junior varsity tournaments in the Spring. Julia ended up playing on our A team at Washington University, Helias, and Rolla (mostly because other players were not available . . . though I had planned to use her at Wash. U, just not the others). She is not a true varsity player yet. She won't start at Districts or State (if we make it there).

I would put Ravi in the same category. I don't care that he has played a couple of varsity tournaments. He is still (basically) a junior varsity player filling a need (basic mathematics) for the varsity team. Danielle did the same thing for us her freshman and sophomore years, though she was not a true varsity at the time either.

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Post by DeckardCain »

If MACA is intent on running a JV state tournament, they should set clear guidelines as to who is eligible for JV. They're going to run into this problem every year.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

DeckardCain wrote: If MACA is intent on running a JV state tournament, they should set clear guidelines as to who is eligible for JV. They're going to run into this problem every year.
This definitely needs to be done; having such a guideline defined for JV State by MACA early in the season would (hopefully) become a standard (whether officially adopted by TDs or not) for eligibility to play in other JV tournaments. I think the only definition I've ever actually seen for a JV tournament was for Lexington's JV tournament, where McCrary defined a JV player as a "non-senior who does not regularly play on the varsity team."

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Post by Charlie Dees »

I'd be curious to know how many varsity tourneys Ravi has played in.

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Post by ecks »

DeckardCain wrote: If MACA is intent on running a JV state tournament, they should set clear guidelines as to who is eligible for JV. They're going to run into this problem every year.
QFT.

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Post by Ravi Fernando »

I regularly play for varsity, and have done so in all five tournaments (not counting this one) and six other games this season. On the other hand, we only had one JV game--on Jan. 30 at Canton--this year, other than the JV tournament; I actually played in the varsity but not JV game against Canton. We don't have a JV team. I am not aware of any rule that disqualifies players in my situation from playing in the JV tournament. In fact, everyone on our team plays for varsity, so by your definition of JV, our only eligible player is a junior who decided to join yesterday, without knowing it was the day of our last game before Districts.









;)

The organizers of this tournament shouldn't leave any gray areas. If they don't want anyone who plays for varsity to be in the JV tournament, they should specifically say that. Being ineligible to play is better than playing and being attacked for it.

-Ravi

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Post by East Buc & UMR »

Ok then why are you taking a Varisity team to a JV tournament in the first place?

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Post by Charlie Dees »

If you play Varsity all year, you just aren't JV. It's that simple.
If you don't have a JV team, then don't go to JV state. It's also that simple.

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Post by DeckardCain »

To anyone who received or saw the invitation to this tournament: did it say anything about how the tournament defines a JV player? Even under Lexington's liberal interpretation, "a non-senior who does not regularly play on the varsity squad," that still disqualifies Kirksville. If they didn't violate the definition of a JV player, then all objections should be dropped; Kirksville shouldn't be taken to task for following the rules, regardless of whether the rules are fair or not. If there was a rule, however, and Kirksville did violate it, then I think it's only fair for Kirksville to give their trophy back.

At any rate, MACA needs to discuss this at the next convention. If they're not going to set clear standards as to who is eligible for JV State and who isn't, the tournament is pretty much pointless as a "JV" tournament.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

Even if there wasn't a rule, I think Kirksville pretty obviously was NOT JV, no matter how you construe it.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

So you're basically saying instead of sending your less-experienced Varsity players to a JV tournament (which would be 100% legitimate), you instead send your whole varsity team. That's really not too much different than, say, all of Liberty's JV people having prior commitments and as a result sending the Varsity team to a JV tournament just to have a team. I can understand players who don't see much playing time participating in a JV tournament and it's definitely encouraged.

This is one thing I particularly have a problem with:
Eleven people showed up for our team, and we played all of them
If you have this many people, you really shouldn't be playing your varsity starters even if you don't have a JV team, no matter how (in)experienced those starters might be. Plus whatever happened to limiting teams to 8 players...?

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but for the 3 or 4 main starters on Kirksville's Varsity team, 1) what year of school and 2) how many years of quiz bowl has he/she played?
If you are all in your first year, there might not be too much of an issue but I'd have to say if at least one of your players is completing their 2nd year of quiz bowl participation and they've played primarily Varsity the whole time they're probably too experienced for JV play.



As Matt said, if there was no explicit rule defining a JV player for participation in JV State, Kirksville shouldn't be reprimanded for this, even if it wasn't entirely kosher. In any case, this situation is a very good example of why MACA needs to adopt a concrete definition of what a JV player is.

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Post by hugatree1715 »

I would like to add my two cents on the situation (based on playing Kirksville):
This is one thing I particularly have a problem with:
Eleven people showed up for our team, and we played all of them
When we played Kirksville, the same three people (Ravi, Laura, and a third person) stayed in the whole game and there was a "fourth chair" that switched between three additional people. If the team that actually played was mainly Varsity starters, is that fair? If Kirksville brought all of their "less-experienced-but-still-technically-varsity players" and played them the whole time, there would be no problem.

I agree that the bottom line is that MACA needs to decide what their eligibility rules are; there's nothing we can do to reprimand Kirksville now (if they should be punished in the first place).

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Post by East Buc & UMR »

I might note that Laura and I were subbed out for at least one or two periods in (almost?) every game
O rly?

When we played Kirksville, the same three people (Ravi, Laura, and a third person) stayed in the whole game

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Post by Ravi Fernando »

Just to answer a few questions...

DeckardCain: my coach said that the tournament's definition of JV was the (very liberal) "anyone who isn't a senior," and, ScoBo1987, that a team is allowed to play an unlimited number of players. I would assume that she checked these facts before the tournament.

AshkenaziCD: Laura and I are varsity players, but we were still eligible for the JV tournament. The rest of the team (except for one or two people near the boundary) was made up of people who would play for a JV team if we had one, and who only play during games against weaker teams when we can afford to play eight or more people. In any case, I know of no rule against playing varsity people, unless they're seniors. If you can find one, as DeckardCain said, then we should give back the trophy.

ScoBo1987: Two of our varsity starters, Scott and Emily, are seniors. Laura is a junior and I am a freshman. Because of this, I really don't know how much they have played for varsity in past years.

Just a friendly reminder to everyone: I won't name names, but some people's posts have seemed (almost) like personal attacks. I assure you that I didn't make the decision to put myself in the game. Also, again, Laura and I didn't play from beginning to end in every game. We weren't anywhere close to that, actually. In fact, I was subbed out for more than half of the grand championship against Savannah, although that was actually because Savannah's coach complained to my coach about playing me. I guess that's one way to win a tournament. I was also subbed out for one period of the division final against Liberty, and multiple periods of most of the earlier games.

I'll take a few more questions, but I think the bottom line in this tournament is that we need a clearer definition of who is allowed to play in JV state. If the new rule doesn't let me play next year, then I don't mind. For now, I'd rather think about Districts.

-Ravi

EDIT: Now I can reply to the people who posted while I was writing that...

hugatree1715: That was one game when we subbed less. I also don't remember being subbed out in the FZW game. I was out for one period against Liberty, three against Savannah, and two or more in each of the morning games.

East Buc & UMR: Which game was that?

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

Ravi Fernando wrote: East Buc & UMR: Which game was that?
I think he was actually quoting Michael from Truman (hugatree1715)

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Post by Terrorizer »

The JV tournament is over, and even though Kirksville may have made some questionable choices about who to play and what constitutes a JV it happens all the time. JV is a gray area and some players switch between the two and should legitimately being doing so, but sometimes the line is blurred and it is hard tell where JV and Varsity diverge. Humiliating Kirksville does not solve anything and there is nothing that can be done about what happened last Saturday.

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Post by ecks »

Ravi Fernando wrote: Just a friendly reminder to everyone:  I won't name names, but some people's posts have seemed (almost) like personal attacks.
Such is the fortune (or misfortune) of being the sole representative of one of the offending teams, I guess, although given the controversy it's remained mostly civil so far...

...but then again, I'm probably just jaded from the flame wars that invade the internets everywhere.

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Post by hugatree1715 »

A team is allowed to play an unlimited number of players
Just for further information, according to MSHSAA rules, a team may only consist of 8 people. But I'm not sure if those rules applied at JV state, but this is good to know for all teams in all MSHSAA situations.

MSHSAA Academic Competition Rules

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DeckardCain
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Post by DeckardCain »

MSHSAA rules don't necessarily apply at JV State (or any tournament for that matter, other than districts and state). That's up to the individual tournament to decide. As to what rules were supposed to be in effect at JV State, I have no idea.

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Post by L-Town Expatriate »

hugatree1715 wrote:
A team is allowed to play an unlimited number of players
Just for further information, according to MSHSAA rules, a team may only consist of 8 people. But I'm not sure if those rules applied at JV state, but this is good to know for all teams in all MSHSAA situations.

MSHSAA Academic Competition Rules
That gets brushed aside outside of districts.

As for my original concern, Ravi does bring up a point saying that Kirksville doesn't have a definite JV squad. This brings up a serious Catch-22. If a school doesn't have a JV squad, and their Varsity is barely on par, they're practically shut-out from this tournament, thereby keeping the Varsity in the crapper. Now maybe playing against JV teams could build their confidence enough to make a run at the top four, but I do need to bring this possibility up.

I'm thinking that it will be prudent for MACA to sit down and develop tighter JV restrictions (adding perhaps "has not played at a MSHSAA district or state tournament"? This wouldn't have kept Kirksville's freshman math phenom sidelined this year, though, but it's a start.)

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JV State 2007

Post by FZW Coach »

DeckardCain wrote: MSHSAA rules don't necessarily apply at JV State (or any tournament for that matter, other than districts and state). That's up to the individual tournament to decide. As to what rules were supposed to be in effect at JV State, I have no idea.
According to the flyer, they were going by MSHSAA rules. Of course, I laugh at that (a bit) since there was a lightening round and a worksheet round. As most know, I am the largest advocate against changing the current format based on several reasons. Having experienced these two different rounds, it did not change my mind. We swept each lightening round (probably written too easy) and did well on all of the worksheets but the Kirksville game (not sure why).

But, the moderators were not as well instructed concerning format issues as you might have hoped. When we went into overtime with Liberty, I had to find the rule in the manual instructing how things should be handled. That was not a big issue since even I could not quote it from memory.


In summary, all of these are minor issues. I will certainly do what I can to address the concerns with MACA.

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JV State 2007

Post by FordATeam/CC »

Anybody ever find out about the small school division: Who all was considered "small school"? Who won? How many teams competed?

Our sophomore JV captain had another responsibility, so I decided not to make the trip. We had a great JV season, but from the sound of it I probably would not have been a happy camper if we had attended. By the way, our normal JV starting four this season consisted of a sophomore, junior, sophomore, and freshman.

Just my two-cents: I have never played a player in a JV tournament that started a Varsity match. Personally, I think there would be something wrong with this. I felt guilty when we had to bump a senior varsity non-starter to JV for a tournament because we were short on players. She only played in two opening round matches and the second was one of our two losses this season. Both tournaments our JV competed at had both Varsity and JV divisions, so there weren't any other situations where we ever had a problem with blurring the lines between Varsity and JV. I agree with what seems to be the majority opinion: In order to have a fair, successful, and realistic JV State tournament, we need to make sure that everybody knows and follows an acceptable set of guidelines.

Thank you to anybody who can give me some information on the small school results, Coach Bertoldie

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Post by hugatree1715 »

I don't know the "cutoff point" between small school and large school, but the divisions were named after the recently released movie TMNT. We had the Ninja (small school) and Turtle (large school) division, and after the awards ceremony, the two division winners (Savannah and Kirksville) played in the "Ninja Turtle" game. In my opinion, it was kind of cheesy.

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Post by DeckardCain »

Apparently, the small-school division was won by Savannah, but I haven't seen any other results.

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