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Protests

Discussion of quizbowl topics not related to specific tournaments
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Ford08
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Protests

Post by Ford08 »

So I was just curious about some of the protests that you have all heard. I would have to say that the worst protest that I heard is when we were playing PH in the Semis at our place and there was a debate about a president, we propose that we just use the World Almanac 2007 for a reference, they said that would be un fair and bias because we owned the Almanac. Pretty stupid cause I do not think that they print the Almanac in Fordland. This is just one of the worst Ive heard I would like to know if you guys have had any good ones like this?

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Haha that is ridiculous.

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socalcaptain
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Post by socalcaptain »

I have a couple:

(1) At districts this year, Osage insisted that there was a rule that you could not write on your paper during tossups unless they were math or spelling. When we asked them to prove it, they couldn't. And they expected us to provide a rule book. Ha!

(2) I protested against Osage b/c they said "Let's Get Physical" instead of "Physical" for the title of the Olivia Newton-John song.

(3) Hallsville protested against me in the championship game when I answered the question about the official religion of Japan as "Shinto" which I pronounced "Shin-too." They protested the pronunciation, saying it is "Shin-toe." We finally just looked it up in a dictionary and sure enough they were right. Oh, well. We got back at them later when I wanted clarification on the pronunciation of Exxon Valdez.

*Side note: What is the rule on pronunciation? Does it have to be exact or just close enough that it is distinguishable as the answer? Especially when you get into foreign authors and things, I would think this would be a concern.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

ACF rules basically say that you have to get all the consonants right and have some kind of vowel sound where the vowels are supposed to be, and I think NAQT does pretty much the same thing, as should any reasonable tournament.

Ford08
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Post by Ford08 »

Well I have an aunt that is from Japan and I asked her about Shinto and she said that in Japan they say it several different ways (Don't ask me to say them) but Shin-toe is the most common.

AethyricNomad
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Post by AethyricNomad »

We were playing a team at districts this year (I think it was East Buchanan) and on the Star of David question, they answered David's Star, protested when they were told it was incorrect, and in the end got the 10 points.

I've never heard of it called David's star, but then maybe I'm just sheltered like that...

josh
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Post by josh »

on a bonus at districts, we were asked for an area, and the moderator said 'correct' before we gave units. the other team protested. my captain was pretty pissed but let them have it. then we crushed them the rest of the game

it felt good.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

We looked it up and right now there is actually not a rule in the MSHSAA book that requires you to give the units. On the page they weren't part of the underlined answer IIRC.

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scphilli
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Post by scphilli »

ashkenaziCD wrote: We looked it up and right now there is actually not a rule in the MSHSAA book that requires you to give the units. On the page they weren't part of the underlined answer IIRC.
I think the only exception to this is if the question specifically calls for the units beforehand (i.e. in a case where the question is asking about the area of a figure and gives the units in yards, but wants square feet). It has always been implied that if the question states the units the answer is in the same units.

Being picky about pronunciations is just stupid, unless they add syllables that are blatantly wrong. Most moderators (or players for that matter) don't know how to pronounce words written in foreign languages that are commonly taught in high schools like French, German, and Spanish. In addition, you run into problems with players who have speech impediments or are deaf where it is simply unavoidable due to disability.

Daegan
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Post by Daegan »

We were at a conference game and the moderator said something to the effect of "give the chemical formula for sulfate" (as a bonus)

the team replied with the correct answer, but she read it wrong, meaning to say sulfite. She gave them the points because "they knew it", we protested. The moderator didn't know how to handle a protest, and one of the kids benched on the other team said "Ok well I'll go get my chem book and prove it!" (it was their school hosting) to which our coach said he couldn't come back in the room after he left.

The moderator ended up giving them the points for it because "they knew it either way" which was absurd to me.

(For the record we beat them 190-20) [out of a possible 250 points]

Charbroil
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Post by Charbroil »

I don't know...it more or less makes sense to me. The moderator asked a question which was almost totally the same and got the right answer. I guess she could have used a replacement question...like the time at Helias where we were playing Richland (the game we won), it was question number 49, and the question asked for the author of 20,000 Leagues, etc., I buzzed in...and the recognizer called me Charles Verne We had to replace the question...I was furious, since I knew it.

And since when can you not come in once you leave? Does that include at quarters & halfs?

Daegan
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Post by Daegan »

Charbroil wrote: I don't know...it more or less makes sense to me. The moderator asked a question which was almost totally the same and got the right answer. I guess she could have used a replacement question...like the time at Helias where we were playing Richland (the game we won), it was question number 49, and the question asked for the author of 20,000 Leagues, etc., I buzzed in...and the recognizer called me Charles Verne We had to replace the question...I was furious, since I knew it.

And since when can you not come in once you leave? Does that include at quarters & halfs?
Not sure. That's just how our coach has always told us and how we play conference. Our conference games are only 2 haves, though, so there should not be any reason to leave. (we don't use mshsaa questions.) Essentially, nobody can leave or enter once a game is in progress (questions being asked)

District games you're allowed to leave at halfs if necessary, though.

We were upset over the fact that she didn't use a replacement question.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

Man Missouri is sure full of sucky quizbowl rules.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

If she read it wrong and they answered correctly the question as she read it, I don't see why they shouldn't get the points. Especially when it is something like that where you can prove it.

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L-Town Expatriate
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Post by L-Town Expatriate »

Standard procedure is (and if it isn't it should be) if the moderator goofs on the question, toss it and get a replacement - even if it's as trivial a missing negative sign or mixing up North Dakota with South Dakota. In theory, a less-than-virtuous moderator could get away with making 1-2 intentional slips aimed at benefiting a team (the first time; the second time either that moderator's fired or the tournament's not attended the following year).

Question integrity must be paramount, perhaps second-most important in the grand scheme of things to sportsmanship.

Daegan
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Post by Daegan »

L-Town Expatriate wrote: Standard procedure is (and if it isn't it should be) if the moderator goofs on the question, toss it and get a replacement - even if it's as trivial a missing negative sign or mixing up North Dakota with South Dakota. In theory, a less-than-virtuous moderator could get away with making 1-2 intentional slips aimed at benefiting a team (the first time; the second time either that moderator's fired or the tournament's not attended the following year).

Question integrity must be paramount, perhaps second-most important in the grand scheme of things to sportsmanship.
Sort of how we see it too.

We soundly defeated them and them getting that one answer made up for 1/2 their total points that game. It was the principle of the thing. Anyhow. Any other funny/stupid protests?

FZW Coach
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Post by FZW Coach »

The "not allowed to come back into the room" sounds like someone taking what they do at state to the extreme. It sounds pretty ridiculous.

This sport is a lot more fun when people are not ridiculous with the rules.

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scphilli
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Post by scphilli »

FZW Coach wrote: This sport is a lot more fun when people are not ridiculous with the rules.
It's also a lot more fun when you don't think of it as a "sport." I should know. Unlike you, I've actually played it.

FZW Coach
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Post by FZW Coach »

scphilli wrote:
FZW Coach wrote: This sport is a lot more fun when people are not ridiculous with the rules.
It's also a lot more fun when you don't think of it as a "sport." I should know. Unlike you, I've actually played it.
Played what? Quiz? I guess my 6 years playing Bible Quiz on a national level means I haven't played quiz. I am sure a 4th place team national team finish is also irrelavent to understanding how quiz bowl should work. Yeah, the cannon of material was different subject material, but I think I played. Eh . . . maybe I didn't. It might have been all a dream, as was revealed at the ending of Newhart (old school tv reference)!

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

Bible quiz in the early 90s is not a substitute for experience playing modern quizbowl.

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scphilli
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Post by scphilli »

ashkenaziCD wrote: Bible quiz in the early 90s is not a substitute for experience playing modern quizbowl.
Or for playing quizbowl in general, modern or not. I've seen Bible Quiz-ish stuff. It is to quizbowl (in the most generous terms I can manage) what history bowls or science bowls are, at best a subset of the overall picture. I used a buzzer at the shoot out in MATHCounts. Not the same thing as quizbowl by a long shot.

And in any event, this is STILL not a sport. We could all do without a little undue self-aggrandizing.

carpenoctem63141
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Post by carpenoctem63141 »

I always negged in MATHCounts.

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L-Town Expatriate
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Post by L-Town Expatriate »

You have to start somewhere. Bible Quiz, MATHcounts, JBA, MSA, etc. sound like a high school's equivalent to a farm system.

STPickrell
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Post by STPickrell »

scphilli wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote: Bible quiz in the early 90s is not a substitute for experience playing modern quizbowl.
Or for playing quizbowl in general, modern or not. I've seen Bible Quiz-ish stuff. It is to quizbowl (in the most generous terms I can manage) what history bowls or science bowls are, at best a subset of the overall picture. I used a buzzer at the shoot out in MATHCounts. Not the same thing as quizbowl by a long shot.

And in any event, this is STILL not a sport. We could all do without a little undue self-aggrandizing.
Wouldn't it be possible to write Bible Quiz questions with 1-2 clues akin to modern quizbowl?

e.g.

In chapter 5, verse 2 of Acts, Peter asks him, 'Why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost?' Who then died as punishment for withholding the proceeds of a land sale, and was followed in death a few hours later by his wife Sapphira?
ANSWER: Ananias (accept Ananias and Sapphira before 'him' is said)

I emailed the guy running Bible Bowl offering my assistance about 3 years ago and got no response.

I think the Bible, science, and history bowls can be decent 'stripped down' versions of quizbowl, but only if good question writing technique is used.

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socalcaptain
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Post by socalcaptain »

I believe that an individual subject bowl is just as important as an overall quiz bowl.

Arguing that any one is better than another is akin to someone arguing that baseball is better than football, or that Aquafina is better than Dasani. Everyone is going to have their own opinion of the matter, and no progress is going to be made.

As long as Bible/history/science bowls and similar competitions (geography bee, spelling bee, etc) maintain good question style and difficulty, there is no basis to say that they are any less prestigious than what we might tend to call "standard" quiz bowl. If you pardon my comparison here, is it any better to say that Wal-Mart is better than McDonalds because Wal-Mart has more products than McDonalds does? No.

(By the way, does anyone else here watch the National Spelling Bee? Back when I competed, the rules were simple. I personally think they've really screwed up the bee only to make it more broadcast-friendly. Timing rules didn't exist in 2002, and the bee went just fine.)

--Disclaimer: My power supply went bad on my computer at home, and I'm writing this post at Mizzou during Summer Welcome. If I don't respond immediately to any replies, just give me a day or two to get access to a computer.--

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scphilli
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Post by scphilli »

socalcaptain wrote: I believe that an individual subject bowl is just as important as an overall quiz bowl.

Arguing that any one is better than another is akin to someone arguing that baseball is better than football, or that Aquafina is better than Dasani. Everyone is going to have their own opinion of the matter, and no progress is going to be made.

As long as Bible/history/science bowls and similar competitions (geography bee, spelling bee, etc) maintain good question style and difficulty, there is no basis to say that they are any less prestigious than what we might tend to call "standard" quiz bowl. If you pardon my comparison here, is it any better to say that Wal-Mart is better than McDonalds because Wal-Mart has more products than McDonalds does? No.
The point that your missing in that mess of inapplicable analogies is not that one is trying to compare apples and oranges in this case. Religion questions are a discrete subset of quizbowl as it exists, as is history, as is science. The original assertion was that by competing in an event ENTIRELY composed of one of the discrete subsets (in this case a subset of a subset as Bible Bowl is about Christianity and not religion), that that was somehow akin to playing the game that is the aggregate of the subsets. No one is making a qualitative judgment, or saying that one is more important. What is being said is that playing a game based on a small part of the canon of the overall game is not equivalent to playing overall quizbowl, just as playing quizbowl would not be equivalent to playing Bible Bowl.

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socalcaptain
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Post by socalcaptain »

Point taken and understood. I wasn't particularly responding to or refuting any specific post...just throwing out that point so that future posters don't try to twist anyone's comments. I never really construed anyone saying that any of the others were inherently inferior to the others.

And no, I wouldn't say that playing a subset game is exactly the same as playing the game as a whole. I suppose it's more of an analogy to something like baseball. The analogy that had been drawn before related the others to a farm system, which I disagree with. I think it fits better to describe it more as spring training. There's batting practice, fielding practice, pitching practice, etc. Playing a subset-bowl can get you really prepared for certain aspects of quiz bowl (just as baseball players need batting practice), but there is no perfect substitute for QB as a whole. The knowledge that players of Bible bowl/science bowl/history bowl/etc. can bring to a quiz bowl setting is very valuable and can provide great support to a team.

It still seems a little unfair to tell someone that they are not "qualified" per se to be a good quiz bowl coach or hold a certain opinion simply because they haven't played the game. Players like Terin, Charlie, and other legends of the QB world were new at one point or another, and they were probably still good at playing the game even as rookies.

--Same disclaimer as before; I'm still at Mizzou using the student IT systems!--

Awehrman
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Post by Awehrman »

Analogies are fun. Try this one. I'd argue that quizbowl is superior to all of those other bowls (not that they are really in competition), because quizbowl is really an aggregate of them. It's not like arguing that baseball is better than football, but more like arguing that the Olympics is better than baseball. Wal-mart, therefore, is better than McDonald's because many Wal-marts contain a McDonald's but no McDonald's contain a Wal-mart.

More to the point, most coaches did not play quizbowl prior to coaching it. Celebrated NKC coach Larry Allen stumbled into coaching after the previous coach gave it up and no one else wanted it. It took a few years of observation and trial and error to really figure out the game, recognize and nurture talent, and compete at a high level. Maybe Mr. Allen has some Bible quiz background, but I don't think that experience helped nearly as much as observation of the game at all levels, talking with other coaches from around the country to learn their opinions and techniques, and a desire to improve. I'd say that it is almost better to come into coaching with a clean slate (and a love for learning) than it is to try and pigeon hole quizbowl into some other similar competition that one had previous experience with. If you'd like another analogy, this would be a like a cricket player trying to coach baseball without changing his methods or terminology. There may be some beneficial parallels between the two sports, but I'd argue that it would be far better for the coach to fully learn baseball before applying cricket to it.

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L-Town Expatriate
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Post by L-Town Expatriate »

Now, while Bible Bowl might be a small fish in a large bowl, it can serve as a decent launch into the sport if the technical structure (buzzers, format, etc.) is similar.

Not to mention the moral upbringing the parents believe it will install. Or narrow-mindedness, depending on one's personal perception on Christian faith or religion altogether.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

OK, but what I'm saying is pretty much what Andy said - we should just be doing everything in our capacity as quizbowl people to improve quizbowl, and we should not kid ourselves that what I can only presume was an event run not very similarly to high level modern quizbowl (considering it was held before the modern era and bible quiz, like many other satellite trivia bowls, is run by people unfamiliar with what high quality modern quizbowl is [case in point: MoWest's history bowl featuring multiple choice, true/false, and other goodies]) is something that should be held as a new standard for how to run quizbowl.

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